'Subject To Interpretation' is a weekly podcast that deep dives into the topics that matter to interpreters.🎙 Hosted by Maria Ceballos Wallis
This week we speak with Rachel Herring about academic research on the act of interpretation.
Rachel E. Herring holds an M.A. in Translation and Interpreting from the Monterey Institute of International Studies, a Masters of Advanced Studies in Interpreter Training from the University of Geneva (Switzerland), and a PhD in Interpreting from the University of Geneva. She is currently the Director of the Translation and Interpreting Program at Century College (Minnesota) and works as an interpreter at Children's Minnesota. She has presented on interpreting and interpreter training in a variety of venues, both nationally and internationally. Her academic work centers on cognitive processes, skill acquisition, and expertise in dialogue interpreting.
'Subject To Interpretation' is a weekly podcast that deep dives into the topics that matter to interpreters.🎙 Hosted by Maria Ceballos Wallis
This week we speak with Rachel Herring about academic research on the act of interpretation.
Rachel E. Herring holds an M.A. in Translation and Interpreting from the Monterey Institute of International Studies, a Masters of Advanced Studies in Interpreter Training from the University of Geneva (Switzerland), and a PhD in Interpreting from the University of Geneva. She is currently the Director of the Translation and Interpreting Program at Century College (Minnesota) and works as an interpreter at Children's Minnesota. She has presented on interpreting and interpreter training in a variety of venues, both nationally and internationally. Her academic work centers on cognitive processes, skill acquisition, and expertise in dialogue interpreting.
Welcome to subject to interpretation, a podcast, which takes us deep into the topics that matter to professional interpreters. I'm your host, Maria Wallace. Today. We're going to look at an academic discipline that impacts the discourse around interpreters and their practice. It's called interpreting studies. What is it? Who does it and why should practicing interpreters care? Our guest is Dr. Rachel Haring. She received her PhD in interpreting for the university of Geneva and her master's degree in translation and interpreting studies from the Monterey Institute of international studies. Rachel is currently the director of translation and interpreting at the century college, Minnesota, and works as an interpreter at children's Minnesota. Welcome Rachel,
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. I'm really glad to be here.
Speaker 1:Your academic work centers on cognitive processes, skills, acquisition, and in particular dialogue interpreting. But before we get to that, let's start with the basics. What is interpreting studies? Is this a discipline where all academic research related to interpreting resides?
Speaker 2:Well, it's a big question and a good question and I'll do my best to answer it without going too far off into the weeds. Um, you pull me back in if you need to, especially if I talk about something that, um, seems to be a little more explanation, please let me know. So interpreting studies is an area of academic research that focuses on interpreting, as you said, it includes spoken languages. It includes sign languages. It includes all kinds of settings and modes and modalities all over the world. Um, it used to be a number of decades ago that interpreting research was sort of included with translation research as the same thing, but since about the 1990s, but certainly within my lifetime, the eighties and nineties, um, it has solidified solidified rather into a very flourishing academic discipline of its own. Um, and I'd like to give you if you'll allow me just a little information about the general landscape of interpreting studies, what it, what it contains, what it talks about. Um, it, because interpreting happens in so many fields and involves so many things, interpreting studies is also something that has a, a field, a discipline that has borrowed a lot from other academic disciplines and things like anthropology, cognitive sciences, linguistics, psychology, sociology on and on. And, um, because of that, there are communities of researchers within interpreting studies who are approaching, interpreting, or approaching the, their object of study from different angles, asking different questions, thinking about different things, having different things at the forefront of their investigations. So you might find researchers that are focused on working memory and cognition. You might find others who are focused on issues of equivalence or lack of equivalence between languages. Others are looking at things like sociology, the social status of interpreters, others are looking at power and control and interactions. Um, and I could go on and on, but those are a few. And of course, it's also important to note that those areas or foci are not, um, existing without conversing or in isolation. There are a lot of scholars, a lot of researchers who do work that crosses bridges or that co that work that happens in multiple areas that multiple, um, across boundaries we could call them. Although I don't like that word much, but, um, and in fact, this, a lot of scholars have talked about how this is a strength of interpreting studies, that the fact that people are cross pollinating and sharing across, um, settings and foci and research approaches is very, um, important, a very big strength. And there's one scholar who has a quote about this, that I'm gonna share with you on the slide in a minute. But that talks about the fact that because interpreting itself is what he calls multifaceted. Um, that means it has a lot of sides. A lot of things that you can think about are ways you can approach it because interpreting is complex. It actually needs to be approached from all these different viewpoints. So I'm gonna just briefly share my screen with you and show you this quote on the screen, cuz it'll be easier to follow, I think, and also talk through it just slightly. So this is a quote from Fran Pocker, who is a well known scholar of interpreting studies. And he talks about that. Interpreting we can understand, we can think of interpreting as<affirmative> as something that happens between sociocultural entities. So out there from a sociological perspective of systems and courts of law and hospital systems and international business and international diplomacy and social services work at the local level, that interpreting is something that happens between these entities. It's also a distinct professional profile. We can examine and investigate. What, what is an interpreter? What training do they have? What skills do they have? What knowledge do they need? How are they viewed in society? Are they seen as high status or low status, et cetera. It also can be thought about and talked about as something that happens in an context. So when we think about the role of the interpreter in the medical setting, or, um, how interpreting functions and what are the constraints and the, the boundaries on how interpreters behave in a legal setting versus a conference setting versus, uh, medical setting, then we're thinking about institutions, right? We're also thinking about institutional requirements, such as following HIPAA, such as disclosing conflict of interest in a court. Um, that's the institutional context that we're in. So again, we can study his point is that we can study interpreting as all of these things. We can study interpreting as a set of interactional behaviors. Things like what happens when everybody's talking over each other in a dialogue encounter, what happens when, um, a cross examination is happening. And I understand that there are questions that are being asked in a very tricky way that are turned on their head and that as an interpreter, I need to understand that these are interactional behaviors that are part of or rooted in a given kind of context. We can also understand interpreting as text comprehension and production. This is kind of the, that, um, idea of just repeat what I say that Lang that, that one way of thinking about interpreting is that we're understanding something and we're producing something. Another thing we can think about, or another way we could approach studying interpreting is as a cognitive processing skill. So there's a lot of stuff going on, cognitive being a fancy word for in our minds, right? Mental processes. So we can understand interpreting as being something that draws on a lot of really complicated mental activity and study that aspect of interpreting. We can also study interpreting as a neurophysiological activity, that something is happening between our nervous system and our motor system. And we could study those aspects of what is happening in our brain. And because of that, he says it eludes, it escapes any specific research model. What he means by this is that any one way of thinking about interpreting is gonna be missing something. If we only study interpreting from this angle, or we only study interpreting from that angle, we're gonna miss something.
Speaker 1:Rachel, this is really interesting because as practicing interpreters, we tend to emphasize the mechanics of what we do. Sometimes this leads us to focus on the terminology or on the sectors. And we even often put ourselves in silos. Like you're a medical interpreter, I'm a legal interpreter, he's a conference interpreter. When in fact we should really be looking at all of the different components of the process. So why should practicing interpreters be concerned with interpreting studies?
Speaker 2:That's a really good question. And I'm glad you asked it. I think that, um, there are a number of reasons that research is important outside academia. Um, certainly research for its own sake. And, you know, as a thing that we do to increase knowledge, to deepen understanding it's valuable, it's valid, but research findings also have a lot of relevance to us outside, um, that there are other objectives and other aims that we have as we research or that we can put research to serve. So, um, there are three points. I think that I like to make about this when I think about it. Um, first of all, research findings can be really important in influencing policy. So people who are doing advocacy, who are lobbying in favor of language access, people who are communicating with either governmental authorities or institutional authorities within a system, like a system of courts or a system of hospitals or et cetera. Um, there are a few examples that I know of and there are many more, but the ones that I just have as quick examples of this happening are for example, all the way back in 2000 in Massachusetts, um, there was a research based, um, push or push that drew on research to get a law requiring provision of interpreters in emergency rooms and acute mental health. Um, there's also been research carried out in other countries like Australia and Canada that have led to policy changes that have led to increased access. And I'm sure there are many other studies we could cite, but, um, those are just a few of the ones. So that's policy and advocacy also, um, research really informs practice research helps us to understand better what it is that interpreters are doing, how it is that that is either aiding or not aiding. What is going on in the interaction, the goals of purposes of the folks that are there and need interpreters because interpreting happens because communication is needed, right? We don't show up to interpret except for that. There are people who are trying to communicate in some way and they need us. And, um, there's a well known scholar or researcher of community interpreting named Sandra Hale, who in fact argues very strongly that really research, especially into community interpreting or dialogue interpreting, which we'll talk about in a few minutes that the main aim of this kind of research search really can be seen as it being about equity and social justice and inclusion. Um, so I'll share with you, it's a little bit of a long quote, but I like it. And I think she, um, says it better than I could, and certainly is a well known and authoritative figure on this point. So I'll just share it with you on the screen, because I think it's a little easier. So Sandra Hill says that the aim of research into community interpreting is basically primarily to find answers that will improve our practice, that it's not specifically about advancing or D looking at theories, but rather by saying, by improving practice, we'll be able to improve the quality of our services, the, those who are disadvantaged in our community, those who can't access services, because they don't speak or sign the language of the community. That they're a part of that, the better we understand the discourse, that is the language that is used, the way language and interaction works in a given context. So what happens in a medical interaction? What happens in the courtroom? What happens in an asylum hearing? What happens at a school IEP meeting where parents are trying to understand what special education means to them, that the more we as a community of practice understand these contexts and how interpreting works in them, the better we'll be able to help interpreters to make informed choices, to interpret in a way that is more informed, more thoughtful, more mindful. And we hope that this will then help to ensure language access, that it will put the Lang minority language speaker or user, um, ha is writing specifically about spoken language interpreting. But I think this applies as well to sign language interpreting, um, in a more equitable position. And I think that this is a really important point that she makes, because she's talking about the fact that, um, research will hopefully lead to better practice. And one of the main ways that research leads to better practice leads me to my third point. I like to make about research, which is education. That research can really influence practice, especially as it is integrated into or infuses the education of interpreters, whether that's in a one off workshop or a 40 hour program or a college program, or in a professional development opportunity. But the more, or even just through independent self study, which we can talk about a little bit later, but, um, taking into account research findings in interpreter, education is a way also that the profession moves forward and that we improve practice. And then that we improve the outcomes. Because as you know, when we're talking about dialogue, interpreting community interpreting, we're really talking about language access. And if we want to, um, improve language access, there are lots of ways to do that. Of course, things like providing interpreters and enforcing laws, but another one is helping to develop the, the skill levels and the knowledge levels of interpreters. And one way to do that is through research.
Speaker 1:So Rachel, to that end, you actually engaged in research specifically for your PhD dissertation. And when you had an opportunity to choose what subject you were going to work on, you chose dialogue interpreting. Now dialogue interpreting is not a common phrase for a lot of interpreters. It is probably more known in the academic circles. Um, tell us, first of all, what is dialogue interpreting and why you chose to focus your research on that?
Speaker 2:Sure. Well, dialogue interpreting is a, is a label. It's just a, it's a different label for that. That allows us to think about one type of interpreting in a different way, by focusing our attention elsewhere as we give it a different name. And I'll try to back up and explain that in a way that works a little better. But, um, when we talk about dialogue interpreting in the research and the literature, we're talking usually about interactions that are involve multiple parties and they're generally goal directed. So the people are there for a purpose. So for example, I'm here to, um, appeal a parking ticket. I'm here to get a refill on my medicine. I'm here to find out from the teacher why she left me a voicemail saying that my child was having trouble. Um, I'm applying for benefits, right? So there interactions that involve multiple parties who are working towards some purpose or goal and dialogue interpreting is often described or, or focused on as, um, having, being characterized by things such as power imbalances between the parties. So if you think about, um, a doctor and a patient, a teacher, and a parent, a, uh, social worker and someone applying for benefits, a judge and a defendant, there are inherent power differentials in play power imbalances. And usually at least in our context in the United States where the two of us are, it is an English speaking person that has institutional authority and power and a non-English speaking person who is seeking something, whether it's information, whether it's prescription, whether it's benefits, whether it's help, whether it's, um, a fair judgment in a, in a civil case or a criminal case. And generally speaking again, in, in the context of the United States, cuz the language that we would refer to would change if we were in a different country, but generally speaking, the English speaking party has that position of authority and the non-English speaking party does not have the language of the institutional authority is coming to seek something. Um, there's also generally in these kinds of interactions, a really high potential for content that is very sensitive or private that may be emotionally charged, that may be traumatic. So you may be listening to me and thinking, well, you're kind of just describing community interpreting or public service interpreting as it's known frequently in Europe. Yes. This is why I talked about it as being a label, a difference in label and a difference in focus. Um, dialogue interpreting certainly has a, is a different way to talk about something like community interpreting or public service interpreting or medical or legal or social services interpreting. The reason I like it as a label myself, is that it really focuses our, instead of focusing our attention on the setting where we are yeah. Or instead the hospital, the court, et cetera, or instead of focusing our attention on the mode of interpreting that it's consecutive or Al or in a booth or not in a booth or that it's signed or spoken, it focuses our attention on the interaction. The fact that, again, that there are those two people or more people, multiple people there, one seeking something from the other, with power imbalances, with all that comes into play there. And, uh, dialogue interpreting slash public service interpreting slash community interpreting is a big area of interest within that bigger field of interpreting studies that we talked about. And I hope you'll forgive me if before I get to the research that I did, that I talked just a little bit about that, that part of interpreting studies, um, especially since about the mid to late 1990s, more and more and more research has been done into this area of I'm gonna continue calling it dialogue, but you can understand community public service, et cetera, dialogue interpreting. Um, I looked, I did a Google scholar search just as a little bit of unscientific checking. Um, but I looked for example that somewhere between 30 and 40%, if, depending on which keyword you use, but between 30 and 40% of the papers in Google scholar about dialogue community, public service interpreting have been published in the last five years. So it, the, the, again, unscientific Google scholar search, but you, that gives you a little idea of just how much more, um, attention is being paid to it in the last few DEC few years and a couple of big things that come out of research into dialogue, interpreting community interpreting that I think are important to talk about are sort of the, the roots of that research come from looking at interpreting in those contexts as something that is an interactional activity. That means that people are interacting with each other contrasted to the idea of simultaneous conference interpreting in which one is in a booth with headphones and people are far away now<laugh> I have lots of colleagues who could come in here and debate with me for hours to say to, although there are interactional aspects to simultaneous conference interpreting in a booth, yes, there are different debate. But the scholars who started to write about community dialogue interpreting in the 1990s, talked about the fact that listen, their, there are differences here, those power imbalances, the fact that people are usually very close to each other in a room, the fact that it's often very high stakes or potentially emotionally charged or traumatic, all of those things are important and need to be focused on and they deserve to be studied from a different angle, a different perspective. And that's why if you remember, when we talked a few minutes ago through that list of ways, interpreting can be studied and the interactional piece showed up in there because, um, these scholars who have been studying these areas since the 1990s or so have been talking about, we need to think about communication as sense making. And what that means is the idea that communication isn't about. I produce you a pretty little package with words or signs and it magically enters your head and you understand it. But rather that communication is what we call co-constructed meaning and understanding is what we call co-constructed, which means that for us to understand each other, we have to have a common frame of reference. We have to, I have to think about what, who you are and what you know, and what you understand what's your experience of the world is as I communicate to you, you have to use all that and, and work to make sense, to understand what it is I've just not handed you necessarily. But the, the thing that has arrived that you have listened to, or visually seen if it was signed. So the idea that, um, that sort of a lot of dialogue interpreting research has come out of, or has focused on not wholly, but a lot of it is this idea that we need to understand interaction. And we need to understand sense making the idea of understanding as a thing that happens between people. So that interpreting, interpreting is not text in text out, text, in text out, but that rather it has to be understood as a joint thing that involves everyone. And that meaning has to be negotiated among everybody that's present, which then leads me to answer your question of sort of, how did I get to my specific research focus, which is that, um, I, I think all those are wonderful and important things to study, and I'm really glad that people are studying them. But I also was aware that there has not been a lot of work done. There's a little more nowadays, but there has not been a lot of work done on the mental, the cognitive processes, the inside part of dialogue interpreting that focuses on the interpreter. And there are other scholars that have said this as well. I don't wanna paint this as a, I, I said this and nobody else did. That's not the case, but, um, I happen to, to be starting these things and other folks were doing it too, which is great. So my sort of intro, or my sort of thought was that we focus a lot on coordinating interactions. We focus on how people are, um, negotiating, meaning we talk about cultural mediation, we talk about role, but because we're doing that sort of from a bird's eye view, and we're looking at the interaction and everybody together there, hasn't been a lot of understanding about the interpreter as the task performer, the per the person who has to keep the train on the tracks or the boat from sinking or whatever. So I, while acknowledging and drawing on all the discourse analysis focused work in public service, interpreting which again I value in part of, and don't want to say that that it's not important, cuz it is extremely important and foundational. Uh, but I also sort of wanted to say, eh, let's, let's look at the interpreter and the interpreter's experience of this. Let's think about how the interpreter, what the, what is happening in here and also in the interpreter themselves, that is the same or different than in conference interpreting because we teach interpreting, we think about skill acquisition. Um, but the models we have for that, the ways that we approach in, in a dialogue interpreting setting, the ways that we approach the mental and cognitive aspects of interpreting are mostly linked to very closely the models and the ideas and the ways of thinking that were developed in studying simultaneous conference interpreting. And that's not to say they don't apply, but wouldn't it be nice to check and see, wouldn't it be nice to see if there are some different things, some things that are important to study and think about in terms of how interpreters think and process and work in a dialogue setting that might not match up exactly. Or maybe they do. In which case we have a little starting exploratory data to show that, but we also could think about pushing our understanding in a few different ways. And so what I did was I ended up looking at specifically, um, monitoring and control, which is the idea that as an interpreter, I have to pay attention to what's going on around me. I have to notice if somebody's talking over me or if, uh, somebody is going too fast or if I really didn't understand that word, or if I'm getting tired or I have to pay attention to what's going on around me and what I'm saying. And so that would be monitoring right? The paying attention. And then the other piece I was interested in is what do interpreters do when something, something emerges, something happens that they are, they have to do something to keep going, to keep the trade on the tracks, to keep the boat in the water, whatever metaphor we'd like to use. So I did a study that looked at, um, in an exploratory way because it's small, but that looked a little bit at, or that tried to figure out sort of what interpreters were paying attention to and the toolkit that interpreters had available to them should something happen that they need to react to. And I did bring you one more slide that, um, gives you just a little bit of a graphic of, um, one part of the various things that I ended up, um, talking about, but I will just show you that last slide quickly. So this, um, is a slide that has over here to the right, to my right, which I hope is Zoom's right. A little graphic that talks about interpreters. What we could call online. Self-regulation now online, not in the sense of the internet, but online in the sense of while performing their task as perform as you are interpreting, what is it you're doing to regulate your performance, to keep it going and not have everything fall apart. And so this graphic, um, was one of the things I had in my conclusions that talks about, um, and I'm gonna specifically talk about these columns of text on the left and right, and not get into the pieces at the bottom and top. Um, cuz I don't wanna bog us down too much, but the things that, um, perhaps not surprisingly, but the, the data I gathered substantiated or, or supported were the idea that as an interpreter's interpreting, they're paying attention to affect to emotion their own and other people's, they're paying attention to behavior, their own behavior. And again, other people's behavior they're paying attention to the, the cognitive piece, that mental piece of did. I understand when I said that, does it was, did I conjugate that verb correctly? Did I pronounce that word properly? Did I remember everything? Um, then also the context, both the context of the situation. So that is like the story that's going on. What's happening around me. How is the, this piece of the inter of the dialogue connected to what happened five minutes ago? Um, so that's what I mean by situational context there, like what's going on around me. Um, how does this question from the lawyer relate to the previous question from the lawyer or to the question from the other lawyer 10 minutes ago? Um, and then the physical context, am I hot? Am I cold? Is there too much noise? Uh, can I see, can I hear things like that? And then the other side on the right that column talks about again in my data, the kinds of things that I found that interpreters had in their toolkit ready to go to use if, if they needed it, things like, um, redirecting their own emotional response. So I'm, I'm getting nervous and I'm gonna think about something positive things like redirecting their attention. Um, this person over there is tapping their pen and I have to block that out and focus things like establishing professional role boundaries or reestablishing them, asking people to, um, letting people know sort of, here's how I am ex hoping that we can make this behave. This is or make this work that this is the things I need you to do and not do, um, to help make this interaction work, managing communication, um, requesting additional input, which is a fancy way of saying, asking for repetitions or clarifications, um, using linguistic control mechanisms, which is things like, uh, what I'm doing right now, as I just said, uh, as I thought my, about what I was gonna say next. So using things in our language that as we speak or sign, although my data was with spoken language interpreters that help us work through what we're trying to say, circle location would be another example of that. So explaining around a word that I can't think of. Um, and then things like asking for more information from the parties to help us understand, um, I'm sorry, you're talking about a brown dog, but I don't understand what a brown dog has to do with the situation right now. And things like adjusting our surroundings. So asking for the noise to be turned off, asking for someone to stop clicking their pen, et cetera. Um, so that's just a little snapshot of one of the things that I wrote about and talked about, um, as we are gonna, I think talk about in a minute or two, um, it can be hard for folks to get access to research findings, especially as a lot of them can be behind paywalls. So I did provide you here, the QR code for, uh, my dissertation. Not that I'm trying to sell it or anything, but if you'd like to read it and see more, um, it is available online for free. So you have the QR code for that.
Speaker 1:Thanks, Rachel, thank you for that. So then talk to us about what your conclusions were, what kind of insights did you gain by looking at those processes?
Speaker 2:So there were some things that were new and surprising, but a lot of it, again, as an exploratory study gathering data on things that we sort of have known and seen, but that we haven't really gathered data on. A lot of it is confirmation of things that people might find intuitive. People might look at that slide and say, yeah, I knew that, but there is value to collecting systematic, to systematically collecting data and analyzing it in a systematic way through, um, really sound processes and then publishing it, having it out there that allows us to then push research in new directions. So that for example, somebody else may come and take what I did and do something similar with a different population and find something completely different or not find something that I found. So I think at least to me, one of the things I'm most proud of is having sort of taken a little spotlight, a little flashlight, and on my, my other slides for this, I have a little flashlight that I use, um, and said, Hey, this is a thing that we should study. Um, other things I think that are really helpful about what I did is that it gives, again that, that document that as much as we may have seen and anecdotally notice things, there are ways in which research and is, is valued and has weight in society, whether we think that's for good or ill, but for interpreters to be able to look at and point at and say, Hey, look, see, I knew I was doing something complicated and here's this, that, that that is published or, or if not published, at least in approved dissertation that says, wow, look at how complicated this is. I knew it was complicated and here's some data, here's some discussion of it. I think that it's also, um, for teaching and learning. I find some of the stuff that I have done in there very useful. I have some stuff from there that I use in my own teaching with my students to understand the skill development aspect of interpreting, because my, I don't wanna say not quite my heart and soul, but my, where I come from, where I even got to doing research was I teach students and I teach students who often don't speak the same language as me. And so I don't understand everything that they're saying, but I need to help them develop skills and to do that, I need to understand what are the skills they need and how those skills are put to use in practice. And so I think that there are a lot of aspects of this work that I have done that I draw on in my own work and that I hope others may find helpful to draw on in terms of thinking about how to improve teaching and learning of dialogue, interpreting whether again, in a one off workshop or in 40 hour training or a college program or professional development, I think there's a lot of there's stuff that can be used in a lot of different contexts.
Speaker 1:Well, I can certainly, and even personally, as an interpreter can see a lot of value in what you've done. Um, let me give you some examples of, of what I'm, um, taking away from this to see whether, whether you agree, um, some possible applications. Um, one, for example that comes to mind would be if we are fighting the battle saying, you know, um, computerated interpreting or cat tools, or rather like let's talk about, you know, the elephant in the room, which is Google translate and some other types of technologies, which threaten to take over translation and interpreting, then perhaps we now have a guide, um, by which we can measure whether or not this supposed replacement to the human brain can actually accomplish all of the necessary tasks that are before them.
Speaker 2:Sure. And I'm not sure that my research is the number one thing I would go to for that, although maybe some aspects of it in terms of the emotional and effective pieces. But, um, certainly there is a lot of work that has been done around, um, the, the piece of first of all of technology and machine translation and machine interpreting, there is a lot of research being done about that and how it, in what ways it is helpful and not helpful, um, where it can be used effectively and not in terms of things like video remote interpreting, there has been, excuse me, a certain amount of research done there. I think there's certainly a need for more. I certainly think it's very interesting. And this is something where I've, I've been talking about this with a couple of colleagues as well, who do similar work, um, or who do work that has some affinities, some similarities, the idea of how does monitoring and control work when you're doing it through video and half of your toolkit is not available to you. I mean, that's certainly something that is highly relevant. And I think it's something certainly that one could, I'm thinking, for example, as a practitioner and one who, somebody who feels like, oh gosh, this doesn't work well for me. I'm I don't know why I don't like it, but I don't like it that thinking or reading or have having access to some of this research findings might help clarify or better articulate. And then perhaps be able to take, say to a manager or to communities of practice other colleagues and talk about, well, part of the reason this is more difficult is for example, I do not have any control over my physical context, even less than if I were physically in the room. Or, um, if I'm interpreting in the screen, I'm looking at is this big, I can see the behaviors and the reactions and the body language of one person, but there are four people in the room and how, how do I manage interactions effectively through that? So I can certainly see, um, you know, a lot of application in terms of being able to take this stuff that I did, which was about face to face interpreting and applying it, or looking at it in remote interpreting settings, which I will again, mention or note that there are a lot of folks out there doing that kind of work. So it is something that there are people they may not be drawing on what I did, but they are out there doing it.
Speaker 1:Now, how about, um, taking this at least as a framework from which to study interpreting fatigue? What about that? Is that, is that something that, that you would see, um, as a useful background tool?
Speaker 2:I certainly think that, I know you had Andrea Henry on a few months ago and she's doing that work on interpreting fatigue, which I cited actually in my dissertation. Um, I think that it's something that certainly informs that well, like it's a couple layers removed in terms of sort of more abstract to more concrete, but I definitely think that this is the kind of my stuff is the kind of research that helps us understand better what it is we're doing the complexity of what it is we're doing, just how much is going on. Um, I didn't show you one of the pieces of my dissertation that I'm most proud of. I didn't show you because it's two pages of text, but at the very end, um, I tried to take all these graphic models that I had done and all of the things I had written and talked about and turn it into a two page first person narrative from the interpreter's point of view, I am an interpreter and this is what I do and I do. I do like it. Um, I'm very, I'm proud of that piece, um, because I think that's the sort of thing that folks can really use to understand better and appreciate better the complexity of what we're doing. And then to the extent that that can inspire people or motivate people to ask questions about aspects of it, or to think critically or think differently about their practice, I think is really valuable. I also think with students it's very helpful to, instead of sort of being overwhelmed by, oh gosh, there's all this stuff I have to learn to have a framework, to have a sort of pathway that says, yeah, there is a lot, but let's break it down. And let's think about the different aspects of it, um, in sort of a more individual fashion or a way that lets us approach learning in a very systematic way that helps us to understand the task rather than just sort of diving in and floundering.
Speaker 1:And I was gonna ask you precisely about that because it seems to me that as a, as a student of interpreting and, and instructor as well, you have to really pick your battles. You have to pick what you're gonna work on because adding any particular time, whether it's your breath, your pacing, your enunciation, your vocabulary, your ability to remember and render, take notes, distractions. I mean, I could probably go on, you know, for quite a long time and that really mirrors your, um, the information you just shared with that, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly. That interpreting. And that's where I sort of started out from, was this, I, I did it the degree at the university of Geneva that they do that is in master's in interpreter training. And that course of study is very focused on, um, a certain way, conceptualization or approach to research and thinking that is known as expertise studies. And then it looks at skill acquisition. So how people learn a skill. And so where I came into interpreter training from was the idea of there's a skill just like somebody has to learn to play the piano or play soccer or cook well, or edit podcasts, effectively interpreters have a skill to learn again, as we talk about all the time, it's not just about being bilingual, but then we have that question of, well, what else is it about and what are the pieces and how can we approach those in a systematic fashion that helps us learn so that we're not just sort of being told, okay, here's a text go interpret, but that we think about the skills and knowledge that go into it. And we develop them and build them in a, a thoughtful, systematic way that helps us, um, learn. Maybe I don't wanna necessarily say more effectively, but at least helps us feel like we have a path, have a roadmap for what we need to do, where what we need to learn and the skills we need to acquire.
Speaker 1:Maybe a little bit more control over our own process,
Speaker 2:Perhaps. Yeah. Whether it's control or even just a, sort of a better understanding, a deeper understanding. Um, one of the things we know about students, I'll go back to the idea of monitoring, not just students learners in general monitoring is one of the last things they learn to do a person who is learning to do a task. One of the last things that they're cognitively able to do is sort of watch themselves do the task and see errors or see issues and fix them. So it can be very helpful for people who are starting out in learning to have some kind of external help that helps them know, know this is normal. This is the, this is how the skill develops. This is the things that, you know, step by step that you need to focus on, or at least at different times, you may need to focus on different things.
Speaker 1:Now, Rachel, there's a big push to incorporate technology into interpreting, learning and practice. Let me give you an example, mark Orlando from Macquarie university in Australia, he's done research training, student interpreters using digital pen technology and the hybrid SIM consecutive mode. Um, he's also written extensively about the intersection of practice research and pedagogy in the training of interpreters. How do you think interpreting studies shapes how we look and talk about interpreting?
Speaker 2:So I think it depends a little bit who the we is there<laugh> that we're talking about? Um, I think it, it goes both ways, right? I think some things come out of professional practice and then are researched later or that things are researched and then they enter practice or pedagogy. But I think it's a, it's a definitely a two way conversation. Um, there are a lot of colleagues who do a lot of work on, um, digital pens on SIM conec on, um, I know some colleagues who do work on taking, they do note taking with a thing that transcribe like that does a recording or ascribing of the notes. And they study interpreter, student interpreters learning to take notes through, um, looking at how their notes develop. So I think that, um, it's sort of a, it really depends. This is one thing where it's very contextualized. I think that in some context, the, there is a lot more interaction between academia or research and practice and other places there's less. I think that certainly, um, the more access that just everyone has to research findings and the more comfortable people feel accessing research and writing and thinking about interpreting as a discipline, I think the better off y'all are. Um, we, I, when I talk about interpreting research or when I've talked about it in the past, I've talked about the fact that, and I'm not certainly far from the only person to talk about this, but that research, if it happens and then doesn't get anywhere, doesn't have an impact, it has an impact in academia perhaps, but it may not have an impact in the everyday lives of the thousands of people who are out there interpreting every day, who may be agency interpreters, who may be staff interpreters, who may interpret once a week, who may interpret 40 hours a week. If they aren't aware that interpreting research is happening, or if they're aware of it, but they can't get access to it, or for whatever reason feel that there's a, that it's irrelevant to them, that there are barriers to them accessing it or learning from it, then the research isn't gonna get us anywhere. And then we also, aren't hearing from folks on the folks who are outside academia and outside research circles about what they are encountering and what they wish we would look at more. Um, so one of the things I wanted to mention before we wrap up actually is to talk about how people can get access to interpreting research. And I have a few tips, a few thoughts, um, a first thought or tip is the library. Um, public libraries can often do interlibrary loan, even if they don't have, um, specific things about interpreting studies in their collections. They can often get them from academic libraries or from other libraries. Also academic libraries at colleges at universities will often have a community level, um, library card or library access. So for example, I teach in a community college and community members can come in and get access to our resources. There are some things they can't do or get access to, but in general, they can't the, then you say to me, okay, but I go to the library and I don't know what to find, ask for. Here's where a handy thing called Google scholar can be really helpful to you because it is a, I don't know if it's a version of Google, it's a way to access Google that focuses on looking for books, articles, journals, research materials. And so you might look up information and you'll find actually a lot of things are public access, open access. So you may search for something and see that there's a link to it. And you can just read it and access it. Um, you may have to ask for it somewhere, which is why I talked about the library. There are also some journals, some academic journals that are open access within interpreting studies. I don't know that I know all of their names, the ones I know for sure are open access, are this one called translation and interpreting, which I think is trans-inc.org probably. Um, but if you look translation and interpreting journal, you'll find it. And then there's the international journal of interpreter education for anybody who's an educator or trainer, or does workshops that journal it's entire back list is online for free. And then, um, another place which you may not think about is social media and YouTube. Uh, there are a lot of folks, um, on Twitter and probably also on other social media websites that talk about their research, that talk about academic topics in ways that are very accessible. They're willing to interact and talk with people they'll often, sometimes if they can share an article, share a publication. So, you know, if you find someone or you hear of someone's work, that you're interested in, it's worth looking to see if they have a social media account that you can follow and learn from. Um, and also YouTube, there are several places on YouTube where there are, um, academics and scholars who talk about research and also podcasts. There are multiple podcasts that talk about interpreting. And some of those, uh, will have interpreting researchers as guests. And there may be others that I'm not thinking of other methods, but those are the main things I think of, um, in terms of just being aware of research. And now the other, I guess, thing that's happening nowadays is that everything is on zoom. So, you know, beyond a lookout for webinars presentations talks, whether they're given by an institution near you or somewhere all the way across the world. I got up at five 30 in the morning, a couple weeks ago to listen to a colleague in Sweden. So, um, those are some things that people have access to. I'm also happy for folks to contact me. My email address is my first name dot last name. So Rachel dot herring, R a C R a C H E L dot H E R R I N G century.edu. Um, and I just also wanted to quickly while we're talking about references and things share with you that I did, um, when I put together the original paper, sorry, I lost my zoom there. When I put together the original, some of the original presentation that I've drawn on a little bit for some of this talk, I put together a list of references that I had used. And so I do want to just share that it also has the references for the quotes that I put up. So I'm just gonna leave it on the screen long enough for folks to take a screenshot, if they would like you can just hit pause and screenshot.
Speaker 1:It's clear that interpreter studies or interpreting studies rather is really more than some of its parts. It, like you said earlier, it includes linguistics, sociology, anthropology, um, cognitive sciences and, and, and everything else. I suspect that in that list of references that you have, um, shared with us that there's going to be a little bit of all of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. At least to some of it. And it'll certainly will lead you in new areas. Certainly I P it's mostly, um, some of it is very seminal or groundbreaking work work in our field. And others are things that are specifically talking about research and interpreting and sort of a, a meta or looking at, looking at research as a thing kind of way to talk about the benefits of research, the pros and cons and so forth. So,
Speaker 1:And what if we have, um, any interpreters out there or, um, who are also butting academicians, how, you know, what do, what do you suggest that they, that they do if they're interested in pursuing this idea of interpreting studies?
Speaker 2:Sure. Well, one thing we haven't talked about yet, and then I suppose I should have talked about sooner, at least we remember to talk about it is that there's a lot of research that goes on in interpreting that isn't exactly in interpreting studies, um, that is done by folks in, um, hospitals and courtrooms in all sorts of its psychologist, offices in schools, where professionals who are in those domains are also doing studies about interpreters and interpreting. Um, in fact, I gave a talk last year, um, for some colleagues, this is the one I was just mentioning at the university of Massachusetts, which is also available online, um, where I talked about the fact that there sometimes seem to be these two bubbles. There are folks doing research in, in interpreting studies. And then there are folks who are doing are doing research about interpreting, but who don't identify themselves as being in interpreting studies. They may not know it exists, but they're doing it in the domains that they work in or that they are interested in. So to answer your question, I think there are a number of routes. I think that folks who are in an institution are in a place where research is happening, can certainly advocate and talk to those institutions about including interpreting and interpreters in their research. For example, I work at a hospital that does research and I have gone to the research department at my hospital and said, Hey, let's do research. Um, so, and that's what began your guest, Andrea Henry from a few months ago, she identified a need and she and her hospital system are doing research about interpreting valuable research about interpreting, but it's coming sort of from that institutional, I shouldn't say, but, and it's coming from that institutional perspective. So, um, for those who have access to those kind of channels and are sort of on the ground, working in a specific applied area, that's a really good way to get into research is to go to the people who are doing research that you know, and saying, Hey, um, other ways that people can get into, you know, if people are interested in doing things like master's degrees in PhDs, there are programs, um, in the United States, generally speaking, you can very easily find a master's degree in translation. There are several master's degrees in translation and interpreting, um, but you can actually go on and study even a PhD level interpret in interpreting studies without having done your first degree in interpreting. So you can come in with a master's in adult education or a masters in psychology or a masters in, or you can go into a degree program that is, that will allow you to study interpreting, even though it's named something different. So applied linguistics, cultural studies, um, public health, you know, there are lots of areas of study that allow you to study interpreting without them being called interpreting. And the reason I say that is because as far as I'm aware, there is not in the United States institution that gives a PhD in interpreting. So I just don't want that to be some like the main thing that people are looking for. Um, there are lots of people who have done PhDs in interpreting. It's just that they're labeled under, for example, like I said, a linguistics degree or a comparative literature, and they're all equally valid. It's just the type of department that they're from. Um, and I don't know that I had anything else there.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Well, that's a lot of food for thought. Rachel, thank you so much for joining us here on subject to interpretation. It's um, it's been really, really fascinating to talk to you about all of these different aspects of interpreting studies, what they can do for us and in fact how we can even participate in them. So thank you very much.
Speaker 2:All right. Thank you.
Speaker 1:And for those of you who are watching us on YouTube, thank you for joining us and please share your comments below. If you're listening to us on one of our podcast platforms, don't forget to subscribe. So you don't miss our weekly episodes. Thank you for joining us here on subject to interpretation. Take care.